After spending an afternoon online I think I'm more confused than ever. Hope that you guys can help!
I'll be taking two trips to the Middle East this coming year: one to northern Israel, and one to Egypt.
I took a bit of Classical Arabic in college, though all I remember is the calligraphy. I love languages, and always meant to pick Arabic up again. Now I think I have a good excuse.
I just picked up some "Teach Yourself Standard Arabic" texts, and was hoping to learn some of the basics before I leave. Now I'm hearing that "Lebanese" as spoken in Lebanon, Syria, and northern Israel is different than Arabic, that studying Arabic won't help me be understood in that part of the world, and that Lebanese and Egyptian aren't even mutually intelligble.
So. Yikes. Can anyone help here? What gives? Will studying Standard Arabic help in Lebanon and Israel, or will this all just be an academic exercise? And will it help in Egypt?
I'll be taking two trips to the Middle East this coming year: one to northern Israel, and one to Egypt.
I took a bit of Classical Arabic in college, though all I remember is the calligraphy. I love languages, and always meant to pick Arabic up again. Now I think I have a good excuse.
I just picked up some "Teach Yourself Standard Arabic" texts, and was hoping to learn some of the basics before I leave. Now I'm hearing that "Lebanese" as spoken in Lebanon, Syria, and northern Israel is different than Arabic, that studying Arabic won't help me be understood in that part of the world, and that Lebanese and Egyptian aren't even mutually intelligble.
So. Yikes. Can anyone help here? What gives? Will studying Standard Arabic help in Lebanon and Israel, or will this all just be an academic exercise? And will it help in Egypt?
-
Re: Is "arabic" useful in Lebanon/Israel and Egypt
Tue, December 5, 2006 - 8:39 PMHi Kanewai,
I'm actually working on learning Egyptian Arabic myself for my upcoming trip to Egypt (so, ya know, if you want to "talk" online or anything....When are you going to Egypt?)
My understanding of the whole standard Arabic vs. the arabic dialects is that, well, basically in any major city if you speak standard Arabic, people should be able to understand you (afterall, Lebanese people understand Egyptian Arabic speakers and Gulf Arabic speakers....) but they will clearly know you are not a native Arabic speaker (which I'm guessing they will figure out anyway....) As I understand it, no one speaks standard Arabic at home, but it is used some times in pan-Arabian communications--when you need people of various dialects and groups to understand. I *think* (please correct me, someone, if this is wrong) that Al Jazeera broadcasts internationally in standard Arabic and some the international Arab newspapers generally publish in standard arabic. Local media, however, are often in the local form.
-
Re: Is "arabic" useful in Lebanon/Israel and Egypt
Tue, December 5, 2006 - 9:32 PMIt is called occupied Palestine! -
-
Re: Is "arabic" useful in Lebanon/Israel and Egypt
Wed, December 6, 2006 - 2:50 AMThanks, Mirah - that's the impression I'm getting also. I was on an Arabic language forum that got hijacked, and it was politics I didn't understand [there were posters that insisted "Lebanese" wasn't Arabic at all but Aramaic & took great offense if you called Lebanese a dialect of Arabic]. They were telling me that English was closer to Spanish than Lebanese was to Arabic. I finally figured out that this was a fringe view & based on politics, but it had me scared.
So I'm back to standard Arabic! And I'm hoping to be in Egypt next November for two weeks. When are you planning on going? -
-
Re: Is "arabic" useful in Lebanon/Israel and Egypt
Wed, December 6, 2006 - 6:50 AMI'm planning to go for two weeks around late March/early April '07 (don't have the exact dates yet--I'm trying to coordinate with an Egyptian friend to be in Cairo when she is, but she won't have her schedule until after the first of the year.) :-)
-
-
Re: Is "arabic" useful in Lebanon/Israel and Egypt
Thu, December 7, 2006 - 3:50 AMKanewi:
> So. Yikes. Can anyone help here? What gives? Will studying Standard Arabic help in Lebanon and Israel, or will this all just be an academic exercise? And will it help in Egypt?
I'm am far from an expert on the region or the language, but this is my understanding.
Egyptian Arabic is pretty different than Standard Arabic. The 'g's are pronounced 'j's and such. But any base in Arabic will help quite a bit.
Jordanian Arabic is much closer to Standard Arabic, and I'm guessing that Israeli Arabic will be pretty similar to Jordanian Arabic.
Lebanon, no idea. But I have a good friend who is a Lebanese War Correspondent, and he travels all through Iraq and Afghanistan using his Arabic.
> It is called occupied Palestine!
It's called Israel.
Do you want to keep conversation civil in this tribe, or do you want both of us to start throwing around one-sided political propaganda? -
-
Re: Is "arabic" useful in Lebanon/Israel and Egypt
Thu, December 7, 2006 - 4:00 AMSorry, just one more comment about politics in this tribe.
Someone asked a sincere question about language in this thread.
I believe that Arabian is a Lebanese Palestinian. He should have been an excellent reference to provide an answer to this question. He could have chosen to be useful and answer. But instead he just chose to attack Israel.
161 countries and the United Nations recognize Israel. That should answer that point.
But, I would prefer to keep biased politics out of this tribe, and instead focus on talking about the language and culture. And indeed helping one another.
-
Re: Is "arabic" useful in Lebanon/Israel and Egypt
Thu, December 7, 2006 - 6:09 AM>> It is called occupied Palestine!
>It's called Israel.
It's called both. Which it is called depends entirely on who you are and what your perspective is. However, even among the people who accept the sovereignty of Israel (which yes, granted, does include most of the official governments in the U.N.) the West Bank, Gaza, and often Golan are referred to differently--as the Palestinian territories/occupied territories/Palestinian Authority territories, etc. Though they are not formally recognized as a completely separate country from Israel at this time, these parts of the Israel/Palestine land area have an unusal status of being not really fully part of Israel either and there are movements that would like to see a two-state solution.
So, Adam, though Arabian was asserting a political POV I'd say you were too. Perhaps the most neutral way of posing the question would be "Is Arabic useful for speaking to Lebanese, Palestinian and Egyptian people." I don't know.... In any case, Kanewi's questiontion is still a reasonable one.
By the way, I think you have it backwards--Egyptian Arabic pronounces the hard "g", Levantine dialects pronounce "j" (gamil vs jamil, for example). But yes, I've heard too that Egyptian is more specific/different from the Standard Arabic. Not sure if that's empirically accurate or one expert's perception, though.
-
-
-
Re: Is "arabic" useful in Lebanon/Israel and Egypt
Fri, December 8, 2006 - 7:58 AMKanewi,
Once upon a time I was an Arabic Linguist, so I hope I can clearly answer your questions.
Most references and teaching materials for Arabic are Modern Standard Arabic or "Fus-ha". MSA is the formal Arabic used in media, politics, and--to some extent--religion. It is similar to the Arabic from the Qur'an, but only as much as we can say our English is similar to the English in Shakespeare's plays.
Each country where Arabic is spoken has it's own dialect. Unlike English, where all the dialects are relatively intelligible, there are dialects of Arabic where one speaker (say, Moroccan) might not undestand another speaker (say, Iraqi). MSA is used to bridge these differences. Nearly everyone undestands MSA and the dialect used in Lebanon is not too different from it. Although they have many words you would not recognized, they will most likely understand you.
Egyptian dialect does pronounce some letters different (as does Iraqi), but you should be understood so long as you are aware of those minor differences--primarily "q" is a gutteral stop, "j" is a "g" sound, and they like to add "m" and "sh" to words. ;) The challenge will be getting them to slow down enough for you to process the words. You can also buy Egyptian phrasebooks for very cheap that will help you.
Of course, if you wanted to, you could just learn Egyptian phrases. The reason most Arabic countries understand Egyptian dialect is that the "Hollywood" of the Arabic world is in Egypt. So, most Arabic speakers have seen a lot of Egyptian dialect movies.
Wherever you visit, they will know you are not a native speaker and try to adapt to the Arabic you are using. Be prepared, though, that they may use words slightly differently between dialects. In fact, there are words that are neutral in one dialect that are derogatory in another!
With all this in mind and a little practice pronouncing words with a native speaker (of any Arabic country), you should do well in any of the Arabic countries.
Good luck and have fun!
:)
Feiruz -
-
Re: Is "arabic" useful in Lebanon/Israel and Egypt
Fri, December 8, 2006 - 8:45 PMThanks, Feiruz - that answers most all of my questions. Nice to know that there are some linguists lingering out there! I've never learned a language in the states where, once I went overseas, I didn't have to adjust my accent. I'll stick with my butchered version of standard Arabic, and amend it as needed.
I do have one more question, if you don't mind. It involves transliteration. I know that there isn't one accepted method. The book I have uses capitol Latin letters for some non-English sounds [i.e. Daad, THaad, Saad, Haa', etc.. so "how are you?" becomes kayfa I-Haal?]. I've seen other books use bold letters for these sounds, and others use d, t, and s with a dot under them. The first two are just irritating to read, and while I like the last my computer won't make letters with a dot under them.
I saw one version that used dv, tv, sv, etc for these sounds - so it would be kayfa I-hvaal? I like this system. It's easier to read, and I can do it on any US computer. However, I found this script on the same site that was arguing that Lebanese weren't Arabic, and some of the logic on the site was borderline racist.
So ... any idea if this is a legitimate system? Or if not, is there one more widely accepted? -
-
Re: Is "arabic" useful in Lebanon/Israel and Egypt
Mon, December 11, 2006 - 8:09 PMKanewai,
You're welcome. It's nice to put my rusty knowledge to use once in a blue moon. ;)
Transliteration can be a real pain. There are many systems, none of which are wrong. Personally, I suggest not using transliteration at all if you can read and write Arabic. Most Microsoft and Apple applications allow you to use Arabic fonts. For Windows XP, these are available in your installation options. For most OS's, you can download fonts online; use Google to locate them.
If you cannot easily read or write Arabic and really do need to transliterate, here are some commonly used methods:
www.mesiti.it/arabic/gram...alphabet.asp
en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Arab..._standards
www.answers.com/topic/arab...sliteration
www.muslim.org/english-qu...ranslit.pdf
I also stumbled across one of many sites dedicated to Egyptian dialect: www.egyptianarabic.com/index.asp
You can use Google to find websites on other dialects, as well.
:)
Feiruz
-
-